Episode 7 Coffee Chats: Lauren Gestes, LCSW, Befriending yourself through therapy & trauma-informed yoga

In this episode of Coffee Chats, Sara sits down with Lauren Gestes, LCSW to talk about how her work as a therapist has shifted, her experience in trauma-informed yoga teacher training, and how both therapy and yoga are a practice of befriending yourself.

Interested in working with Lauren? Connect with her at Lauren@RoomToBreatheChicago.Com

Interview transcript {edited for clarity}

Sara (she/her): Okay. I have Lauren Gestes, licensed clinical social worker here.

And she is almost 2 years into practice, with Room to Breathe, but 4, 5 years into practice as a licensed clinical social worker. She brings a lot of specialties to us, but primarily works with, you know, all of the human population. And brings her Latinx identity into play by cultural multi- culturalism. Works a lot with gender identities. And is doing our yoga teacher training and bringing in a lot of, obviously, somatics, body image, eating disorder, all of that lovely other stuff that comes with being a human and supporting humans and mental health. So we're gonna chat. But you are going to give a better intro of yourself, because this is all about you. And yeah, we're gonna converse about all the things Lauren Gestes.

Lauren (she/her): Yeah. Well, hi, that was a beautiful intro. Thank you. Yes, I feel like you hit on so many of the major points. But I'm coming up on 2 years at being at Room to Breathe, which I…just feel so confused about how that time passed so quickly. 

Sara: It feels long, but also short. 

Lauren: Yeah, exactly. I am a licensed clinical social worker, graduated with my degree in social work in 2018, and so have been working in the field post-degree since then, of course, there's internship before that and other adjacent jobs. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at along my career journey at this point, time wise. You mentioned my Latinx identity, which is a really big part of my work and the clients that I've worked with previously and work with today. And I work a lot with clients who are wanting to come to therapy to work on anxiety. I have a trauma informed focus with all of my clients meaning centering safety and autonomy for clients. And I really, really prioritize, especially since yoga teacher training, incorporating somatics and mind body connection. So that's definitely impactful in my work.

Yeah, like you mentioned too Sarah, I think in my work with clients exploring different types of identities. So racial ethnic identities and gender identity, gender based violence work and gender discrimination is super important to me, too…hard to sum it all up, but.

Sara: Yeah, it is, right? And I feel like, well, I want to speak to kind of some of your shifts, but I feel like you came in with a lot of gender identity, gender based violence, and all of that from your previous job.

Lauren: Yes.

Sara: Especially working with youth and adolescents, young adults…

Lauren: Yes. 

Sara: …the right term to to say for high schoolers. Right? so yeah, I am curious about - I mean, I feel like I can fit a bunch of things in here- but how your personal identity as a therapist has shifted from working in the school to now working in more of a private practice setting with clients and individuals. And your personal identity in terms of like what you feel comfortable bringing into the room, and how you've shifted in terms of how you show up and see different clients.

Lauren: Yeah, I love this question because I really think it's shifted so much since my former work. And since being at Room to Breathe you know, I previously worked in a high school setting. So I was working with adolescents, and I did some family work, too. But mainly was working with teens. And so now I'm mostly working with adults. I do see a couple of teens, too, but age difference is obviously been a big change for me, and I love working with adults. But with the change in setting and my previous job, we would talk a lot about how being stationed in the school and in an area where there was a lack of resources, it could, it felt, so fast paced and kind of like you can never really catch your breath. And I think that being at Room to Breathe, I have more of that space to go deeper with clients and have some longer term therapeutic relationships with them, which really does change the work in many ways.

I feel like with everything I've gotten to explore in my own personal continued learning, but also the consultation groups and trainings that we have at Room to Breathe. My work has shifted to being so much more about confronting shame that we all have. And I now think of therapy as this process of befriending yourself, and I think that's a really different perspective than I had previously. I think, before it was my first job out of grad school, and there - I don't know about you, I feel like most therapists experience this - but there's this feeling of, okay, I need to prove myself like, I actually can do this work. And so I need to give clients all the coping skills and check off all the boxes, and I think now I can just be present more with folks that I work with and work in that befriending process.

Sara: I love that therapy is more about befriending yourself. Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's about building self compassion.

Lauren: Right. 

Sara: And that's like the peak. 

Lauren: Yeah. yeah. 

Sara: For sure, yeah. So in that, with working with clients and recognizing there isn't a checklist. There isn't a…there isn't really a peak. (laughs) How have you changed in terms of maybe just your process or yeah, being in the room with people. I think it's important for clients or potential clients or people who haven’t been to therapy what it's like to be in the room with essentially a stranger at first. Right? But somebody who cares deeply about you and wants you to befriend yourself. But also holds perhaps some more identities to you, right? Like. So we can bring in your Latinx identity here. I think something important for clients to know is that that is a part of you. But that isn't something that they see from your picture.

Lauren: Right. Yeah, or my last name.

Sara: Or your last name. Or your accent, or like any other thing that somebody might use to try to, I mean, we all judge. And when we’re looking for a therapist we certainly want a friendly face, but seeking identities. It's hard. It's hard to know that from a face or a yeah, a name. 

Lauren: Yeah. No I completely agree. And I think it's something that has been a big part of my life in many ways, not just with work in living in a bicultural home or just existing with experiencing these 2 different cultures that are both important to me. And it was interesting in my previous job where I was in a school setting that had majority Latinx population. But now I'm in this virtual world and in private practice, where I'm sought out by clients. So I think I've had to be more intentional about letting people know that I have those identities. And to answer your question a little bit more. I think my work has become a lot more relational. I think it always was, in a sense just because of who I am. But I think now it's much more intentional for me. And so there's more of that intentionality in talking with clients about - how are things feeling between us? How is our process sitting with you? Really talking about how important feedback is in therapy. Because it's for the client. But we're in relationship with one another. So of course, my identities are going to be a part of that, too, just as clients identities are.

Sara: For sure. Yeah. I love that. And I mean, I know it's an ongoing, all of our identities are an ongoing evolution, in terms of being in them and allowing ourselves to be in them and show up in them, and not feeling like we have to prove ourselves in any way shape or form.

But yeah, in terms of what you're saying, relational. It's almost like you just allowed yourself to show up as you in your client relationships. And I think that's like a common shift and process. And a lot of therapist it's like out of grad school where, like you said, the check boxes. And then we start to interact and engage more with clients. And like we need our own selves to be in the room. Because that's our compass. Right? That's really how we are relationally with all humans. So yeah, I love how you said that. So yeah, but it's like the allowing yourself. It's like you as a therapist are befriending yourself in order to help your clients befriend themselves. 

Lauren: Yes, yes. I love that. But it's so true, because I feel like we're not really taught that a whole lot in grad school. I think it's more of this messaging of focus on the client. It's not about you and keep yourself very zipped up and don't show too much. Blank slate kind of idea. But yeah, that's not how it works with the relational work. 

Sara: Yeah, for sure. So I'm curious about - obviously, you're in our yoga teacher training.

Lauren: Yes.

Sara: But before yoga teacher training, you always had a… I mean, I know this from like the interview and getting to know you over the last few years. But you've always had a body holistic somatic awareness and recognition of it's more than just thoughts and feelings with the client. And as we move through the world and experience trauma and identity shifts, and even how to speak to our identities and recognize them and hold them safely. That's in our body.

So yes, maybe you can just speak to…obviously, I want to hear about your yoga teacher training experience. But this, the evolution of you in the teacher training now versus before, and how you kind of are shifting that approach in your practice.

Lauren: Yeah, I was just telling you a little bit earlier I could talk about yoga teacher training all day.

Sara: I love that. 

Lauren: It’s been so life changing, and I honestly mean that. I think it's come a lot from personal experience for me of my yoga practice before yoga teacher training before being at Room to Breathe. Because when I've gone through times of grief, yoga was there for me. And I remember my yoga mat just feeling like this space of support, and that's something I never, I never forget of the feeling of your mat supporting you. And something as simple as that can make such a big difference. So I think, for that reason, and the way I’ve worked through my own anxiety or other life stressors. I felt where I didn't know where else to turn, but to incorporate somatic practices like yoga, or meditation, or doing a body relaxation, in order to fall asleep. So I knew that there was something really important there that clearly worked for me, and it clearly works for a lot of people. But I didn't have so much of the why of it. And in that yoga teacher training has really made such a big difference, because we really dive into that.

Sara: For sure. Yeah. And it kind of not that it debunks, but it helps supplement things that, cause we've been speaking about grad school, It helps supplement things in grad school that we didn't learn or make more sense of our experiences in space with people right? Like we are a body in space. And it's important to be aware of our body and space and how we're showing up and even just seeing body language. And I know we're in virtual space. But there's still so much of holding space for someone to be in their body in front of us.

So yeah, what so far in yoga teacher training has been like the biggest light bulb for you, or just like the most resonating piece. If there's one. 

Lauren: Yeah, I know I'm trying to think like what would be the most, because there's so many, but I'll go with my gut instinct, what immediately popped into my head when you said that was, and with Room to Breathe training specifically, it's psychologically sensitive. It's trauma informed. So I think it's that trauma informed piece and how somatic work looks when it's trauma informed.

Sara: Right. 

Lauren: Because I think it really, when we're talking about therapy and work with clients and incorporating somatics. I think you can really enrich making sessions trauma informed, because through yoga, through body work, there are so many opportunities for choice. Bodily autonomy. And to connect with yourself, which when someone goes through trauma, that connection is often lost. I think that overarching theme in the training has stuck with me the most. And I'm thinking about who I am in location to this training being a therapist.

Sara: Yeah. Has your yoga practice changed at all?

Lauren: A 100%. I was really worried. I might have talked to you about this. I know I talked to Erica about it. I was so nervous that it might be detrimental to my personal yoga practice, because I was worried about not being able to turn to yoga for what I normally would to de-stress or to process. I was worried that I would be too much in the teacher brain mode of just thinking about training, and that does come up. But it's not in a way that brings me any stress. I think that's a testament to our amazing yoga teachers. And the way that I think our training is structured. It's felt very supportive in there being this natural flow to it. I don't feel like I was ever really thrown into anything before it was too soon to go there. So our trauma informed yoga teacher training has felt trauma informed for me.

Sara: I mean you do have to teach. But like that's a really valid point to bring up, because that happens right, that happened to me when I was teaching like there was no, I couldn't go to a different class without being like, ooh, I should remember this piece and try to incorporate it, or…But there's also a piece of like, even in therapy. We're in our own therapy. And we're like, oh, that was good, what you just did. (laughs)

Lauren: Yeah. And that totally comes up. And I think what I was worried about before was that again it would produce anxiety for me. But instead, it's been curiosity. And I think that yoga teacher training has really provided this sense of community for me, because we're in a cohort and that feels so nice. And I would say that it's the most recent new community I've gotten to be a part of, which feels really great, since the pandemic happened, and opportunities for finding community felt so much more limited. So I think that's played a big role…because I feel like - because I feel so safe in yoga teacher training, that, I think, has allowed it to just bring up this curiosity in my own personal yoga practice. So I actually notice so much more about what's happening in my body. I think I'm able to be even more present because of yoga teacher training when I'm doing yoga now.

Sara: And therapy, probably. 

Lauren: And therapy. Yes.

Sara: That's awesome. Do you see yourself as holding space as a teacher or more bringing yoga into just individual client sessions, or both?

Lauren: Honestly both. I initially thought I would only want to bring it into sessions. I hate public speaking.

Sara: Oh, really?

Lauren: I - yeah, I - that's top 5 worst fear, somewhere in there.

Sara: Okay. 

Lauren: So I thought of it as similar to that, because you're - you're leading something. And you're that focus. But because, like you said, I had to do some teaching in training it does not feel the same to me as public speaking at all. It - I mean, I think, because I also get to be in my body, and then everyone else is also in their bodies. It feels more like guiding something that is so personal for each individual person, if that makes sense. 

Sara: 100%.

Lauren: So I wasn't expecting that. But I am really interested in that being a part of my work of offering a class. 

Sara: I love that.

Lauren: I really enjoy it. And I think it would be a really cool thing to diversify my work and just bring in to my life.

Sara: And make you accessible.

Lauren: And yeah, absolutely, which is such an important piece. And that's an important thing for me. And being a therapist and working in private practice.

Sara: I'm still - I mean, I still love what you said about therapy is about befriending yourself, and I think it's important to wrap that up with how yoga is an avenue into that and your relational - like, I would say our practice is more human-centered, and I would say, our yoga is human centered in the sense that like, sure, we're called teachers in terms of like, the teacher is leading the class. But we are drawing from this ancient practice that is not ours by any means, and we are simply the messenger. While also allowing people to befriend themselves through that practice. Right? Just like we are with therapy. We are allowing them to do that through reflection and processing and grieving and feeling, right. And I think that's such a beautiful, like, tie with the way in which you approach therapy is the same way that you're experiencing your yoga teacher training. It's like - you're simply holding space. And you're offering different choices based on an old wisdom that we know works really well in healing.

Lauren: Yeah, that is so powerful. I'm so glad you bring that up because it's totally the same in yoga, too. It is befriending that especially because we do exist in a society where we are taught to be enemies with our body, unfortunately, or at least have a tumultuous relationship with the body. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lauren: So I think that is a really important part of yoga practice. That makes me think of our last in person weekend that we had for training a couple of weeks ago. We did a lot of practice teaching.

Sara: How was that?

Lauren: It was nerve wracking. It was great. It was so awesome to see everyone's journey, and how they have found their yoga voice over time as a teacher. So that was awesome. But there were times when we were - because we were doing so many practices back to back, so much movement. And because we've been in this trauma informed training where everyone practicing or leading would offer options for ways that you could customize your practice. And it was really great to look around the room and see everyone doing their own version of whatever the - well, we're not teachers yet - but the, you know, teacher in training was offering. 

Sara: You can call them teachers. 

Lauren: We're getting there. So I loved seeing that because it was cool that we're all sharing space together. But we're also having our own personal practice at the same time, and we get to be in a space where that option is given to us to like, hey, you get to choose what feels good for you right now.

Sara: Right. Yeah. Like, the asana isn't the main dish here.

Lauren: Yes, yeah.

Sara: It's something your body chooses, and the cueing and all of the actual philosophy and stuff behind it is hopefully the guide into whatever posture your body wants in that moment.

Lauren: Yeah, and I think that it's making me think about your initial question, too, with yoga teacher training and what has stood out for me, and I think another alternative answer for me is the yoga philosophy, and that was our first chunk of training, not even really doing asana very much, but just understanding the context and the history, and I think that was something that I had a little bit of information on before, but not nearly as in depth as I got to see through training. And I think that's really important, because I learned how much yoga is more than just postures or shapes that you create with your body. 

Sara: Right, right. So much more.

Lauren: Mhmm. Yeah. 

Sara: And yeah, the philosophy, like, is a reminder that humanity and human existence has always been both the struggle and this beautiful thing. That we navigate in bodies, but we navigate with wisdom and intellect and belief and spirituality. But it's coming back to that self-compassion. Right? That belief in self.

Lauren: Yeah.

Sara: And it’s not about ability or strength. 

Lauren: No.

Sara: Or all of that stuff. It's simply just about being human and allowing yourself to be human. And I mean really going slow, right? I think of, like yoga philosophy, of like the importance of going slow through life. And savoring and nourishment and community.

But yeah, we live in a society, we have “shoulds” and so I think it…Yeah, it speaks to a lot of just already - if you, I mean, if you like, open Lauren Gestes’ bio and you look at your specialties, like all of your specialties are aligned with a yogic philosophy and guiding guiding people back to themselves. Right? So like speaking about like body image specifically and how terrible and awful the world has been that has led to that being a mental health disorder that we have to like, completely pull apart and debunk and unlearn before we can even guide a client to befriending themselves. Along with, like. gender identities and gender based violence and discrimination. And so. Yeah, I guess I'm shifting the subject a little bit to speak to like that side of you. And obviously, I just think it's all aligned. But I don't have a specific question. I think more of just like, can you speak to some of your work there, or just how that has become a main tenant, and how you are working and who you are working with.

Lauren: Yeah, I love talking about this, too.

Well, when I was in graduate school I interned at a domestic violence agency, and that work was so important to me. I really feel passionate about my time there, and it's something that, even if I'm not working in that exact setting, still comes up a lot with clients in terms of gender based violence. And that has anywhere I've worked with in the mental health field because it's so prevalent unfortunately. And so it's something that again is really important to me, and I think it goes along with having that idea of befriending yourself. But to speak to what you were saying, I think what has to come first is understanding shame that comes in. And recognizing what shame is and how it shows up. Because there's a whole lot of shaming that happens when it comes to gender-based violence and gender discrimination. And because we are so embedded within the systems we exist in, it's just our lived experience. It's our normal. But just because it's the norm doesn't mean that it's okay. So I spend a lot of time talking about that with clients of mine and really love getting to explore those areas with them.

I think, too, is you were mentioning body image, that comes up a lot. I think body image connects a lot, of course, with the identities that we hold and something that I, you know, adjacent to that that I feel really passionate about discussing and like bringing up shame and talking about it and how we got here is just the thinking about how the relationship that we have with our own body impacts us in so many different spaces. 

Sara: Right. 

Lauren: Like, for example, when I was talking about how I hate public speaking, and if I break down why that is, and why it feels so scary to be the center of attention, and to have all eyes on me - can totally, you know, bring that back to body image stuff, and in my relationship with my body. So I think body image…body image can get so siloed as like, oh, this is its own little like issue, but I think it really has this ripple effect that comes into all different spaces that we exist in.

Sara: Totally. Yeah. I don't think I've met a human that hasn't had some sort of relationship…breakage. I don't know what I’m to say - with their body. Like, and I don't want to say body image disorder because I hate that. But some sort of difficult relationship with either a part of their body or just their body in general, or the idea of what their body should be. Shape, size, color, all those things. And yeah, it's so intertwined in a lot of other ways somebody is functioning or showing up in certain spaces.

And yeah, whether it's through yoga, or really just through processing other parts of our fears or our worries or our relationships. It's such a important thing to help get to the bottom of in terms of like, reset a foundation of who a person is based on what they want to be.

Lauren: Right, right.

Sara: Right. And how they're feeling. 

Yeah. So yeah, I kind of want to round this out with obviously, I always like to say, like, how do we get in touch with you, access you. I don't want to put any pressure on you to start a yoga class, but (laughs) now that you said it I’ll manifest it for you.

Lauren: (laughs) Thanks, Sarah. 

Sara: But I mean, I feel like we’ve touched on a lot. I want to, obviously, and could keep going. But I want to talk about like Lauren Gestes as a therapist at Room to Breathe. Also, supervisor. Like, where do you see - where do you see your work growing the most? And what things do you feel you’ve let go of, in terms of like they're not as important any more to you because they were never really needed? I mean, like you spoke a little bit to like, the checklist stuff and like the coping skills stuff so like that can be your answer. But yeah, just like where do you see yourself putting more of your eggs in the values bucket, if you will?

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it totally is in that direction of yoga and teaching a class. And that being another way to interact with the community, and offer what I can to the community. And as well as how yoga will be incorporated in my individual sessions with my therapy clients, too. So I think the journey will only continue from here even once training ends in September. And then what I'm letting go of. Yeah, I think, sort of with what I was saying before. I think a lot of it is the idea of having to like fit into a certain box as a therapist, like I provide this specific modality, and that is who I am, and I need to establish that. And I think it's more so me showing up as me.

Sara: I think we need to rewrite your bio.

Lauren: I'm working on that right now actually! 

Sara: I feel like that should be a thing we always do.

Lauren: Yeah!

Sara: Like an annual activity of - you've changed. It's been a year. Let's rewrite your bio.

Lauren: Exactly. 

Sara: And I feel like we could do that with our clients, too, like what your bio today versus what it was and like, what things do you care about? It's really easy for us as therapists to be like, I went here for school. And I did this training. And instead of like, I care about these things. 

Lauren: Right, right. This is who I am as a human. I'm more than just the things I accomplished or completed.

Sara: Right. And paid for.

Lauren: Yeah.

Sara: But those are important things to be proud of, too. Because, yeah, that ain't no thing.

Lauren: Yeah, it was still a lot of hard work. I love that, though, new therapy exercise. What's your bio today? 

Sara: Yeah, like, what things are important for people to know about you? That they otherwise wouldn't know before meeting you, and maybe not even in a first conversation.

Lauren: Right.

Sara: Because that's another, like, we don't always come to….it is important as a therapist to come to a space and name, like, these are the things I care about. But we don't always come to the space, like, this is who I am. And yeah.

Lauren: Exactly.

Sara: Clients don’t do that either.

Lauren: Yeah. I don't think we're accustomed to…

Sara: No.

Lauren: …introducing ourselves in that way.

Sara: No. Yeah, unless it's like formalized in the icebreaker activity.

Lauren: Which we all love.

Sara: Right. (laughs) Okay, well, Lauren, this was lovely. I feel like I want to do another one when you've “graduated” from YTT. 

Lauren: Oooh, I love that idea.

Sara: Right and like, where is she now? And I don't know. We're always evolving. But thank you, this was beautiful. I feel like everyone should know that therapy is the process of befriending yourself. We're going to share that.

Lauren: Thank you so much for talking with me and letting me share a little bit about myself.

Sara: Yeah. All right.