Episode 3 Coffee Chats: Dr. Kelsey Schroeder, Grad Student Support & Navigating Graduate Program Systems

In this episode of Coffee Chats, Sara talks with Dr. Kelsey Schroeder on Kelsey's journey through graduate school, why she created a group space for current graduate students, and proposes thoughtful inquiry around the challenges within graduate program systems.

Kelsey’s grad student support group, Project Coping Corner, will resume in August 2023. Contact Kelsey at Kelseyschroeder@roomtobreathechicago.com or call (312) 585-5781 to register.

Interview transcript {edited for clarity}

Sara Buxton  I'm talking with you, Dr. Kelsey Schroeder. You have like, eight years of experience and I wanna say 20 years of school.

Kelsey Schroeder  Feels accurate.

Sara  Master's in Forensics and clinical counseling psychology. And obviously you're a doctorate in clinical psychology, which is badass. You've been in Tennessee for how many years?

Kelsey  Yeah, so I was in Tennessee for just a year and then relocated back to Chicago in August, so I've been back in the city.

Sara  Okay. We both had the lovely opportunity of working under Dr. Schweitzer at Malcolm X for our internship, I don't know if it was your counseling or your assessment. 

Kelsey  Yeah, I did get my counseling practicum, my therapy practicum.

Sara  So both of us got our counseling practicum there. And you've kind of worked with a wide range of populations from chemical substance abuse, mental health diagnoses, students - from universities, mostly.

Kelsey  Yeah.

Sara  Inpatient, outpatient. So you've kind of been around the map, when we talk about clinical psychology. And now you're here with us. And you're kind of a half a year in almost?

Kelsey  Yeah. Which is exciting. Yeah, and kind of nuts to say, too, but yeah, it's been about a half a year.

Sara  So what we're going to talk about is, really, you and I want you to do a little intro of yourself and where you find yourself, I don't know, six months into private practice. And obviously, your group of students, grad students. So talk about yourself. Tell me who you are.

Kelsey  Yeah, small and big question. Right? Who are you? So I am from Iowa originally, and then relocated to Chicago about eight years ago for the master's program in forensic psychology, had a really great experience in that program and was able to do work as a practicum student at an outpatient facility. So doing community mental health there, got a really good feel for maybe where I wanted to move forward in terms of more like clinical psychology as opposed to forensics, and then decided to move forward with my doctorate in clinical psychology. So for that program, I had a lot of exposure working with primarily students, so working with numerous college counseling centers. I also worked inpatient for a year. So I got some really good experience working on assessments with inpatient clients, and then also doing groups inpatient, which is kind of a different climate to also work in. And then a lot of my group experience has been with chemical dependency, specifically alcohol dependency. And then I've also done, like, skills groups, psycho ed groups, both inpatient and outpatient. And then for my internship, I lived in Knoxville, Tennessee for a year. So I relocated there and worked at the University of Tennessee and their counseling center. And there I got to do individual therapy, couples therapy, which was great at a college counseling center to do couples work. And then also doing group work there. So I ran an interpersonal processing graduate student support group there and had a really phenomenal experience, which is why I wanted to continue it in my work here at Room to Breathe. So what brought me back and what actually brought me to Room to Breathe was a couple different factors. One, I heard it talked about so highly from Dr. Schweitzer, and I very much trust her clinical and personal opinion about people and places. So as soon as she was saying what a positive experience she was having it kind of piqued my interest, and then doing my own research about the values and primarily the the community aspect of what you, as the owner, but also I think the practice and clinicians on staff really value in terms of like how we are people before we're clinicians and the importance of having community and safety and being treated with dignity and respect, which feels like it should get given but sometimes, unfortunately, isn't. 

Sara  We mess up.

Kelsey  Yeah, we mess up and we make mistakes and we have to hold space for grace and compassion and bravery to lean into that too. Right. It's like that's what we ask clients to do. And so yeah, I think that's kind of all been my growing experience for the last six months. I've never had experience working in private practice before, so getting to have the space where I get a kind of a different exposure to potential clients and caseload management. And just getting to meet different people in private practice has been a really phenomenal experience. And I feel really grateful and honored to get to share the space and be able to have opportunities like this.

Sara  Yeah. What do you feel is like the newest, the newest novelty to you, since joining Room to Breathe in terms of clinical work, or maybe even the somatics piece?

Kelsey  I would have to say it's actually two things. One, I think this is one of the first places I've worked, where I felt so seen as a person, and feeling how much that has benefited my clinical work, like feeling supported and encouraged to kind of explore my own humanity and how that impacts the way that I show up as a clinician and how that benefits the connection I have with clients. And combats compassion fatigue, and all of the parts that I think just make sometimes being a clinician also hard to hold space and the hard, difficult parts of just the human experience. So I think that's been a huge part of it is just feeling valued as a human being honestly. And then also the somatics piece - like getting you to have access to the Room to Breathe yoga, getting to be able to have access to yoga, in like meetings, the way I think we value the somatic experience also contributes heavily to feeling valued as a human being. I think that also translates directly to the work that I do with clients like being able to have access, like, here's a referral that I know is gonna be really quality space with really thoughtful and well trained and competent yoga instructors who are trauma informed and being able to just kind of offer this both body and mind, collaborative experience in terms of treatment feels really unique and special.

Sara  Cool, that's good to hear. That's great to hear. And sad, because we're like, Oh, why didn't someone value your humanity before, but I think that speaks to also why you are working in the space with students. And I also am curious, because you've had so much school, right, like, my master's program is long behind me. It's 2012, which is wild. That I know speaking with Dr. Schweitzer a lot, it's like, well, folks who come out of the doctorate programs are like burnt crisp. Also, it's a perhaps jarring experience  sometimes? To come into a space where like, now you have to set your schedule, and you choose your hours. And it's like, let's figure out where your boundaries are. So what has that experience been like, stepping away from - obviously, being in Knoxville it was probably a thing too, and coming back to Chicago - but now you're not a student. And you also have way more years experience than most students coming out. You were a student years ago, and you've been a clinician for a while, but now we're calling you a clinician.

Kelsey  Yeah, it's a whirlwind, for sure. Like I sometimes still, when people ask me, do you want to be called Kelsey or like Dr. Schroeder, I'm like, call me Kelsey. Like that feels most authentic. I don't think I'll ever lose that, to me that feels most authentic. Or maybe I will, I'll change and shift and grow and feel differently in the future. But for right now that feels the most authentic. Honestly, I feel like it doesn't feel real sometimes. Like it just feels like it was just a long process of kind of having two identities of being a student and a clinician in training. And then all of a sudden, it's just like the shift and I graduate. And then it's like, okay, now you're just doing the thing that I've been doing for a long time, but with a lot of structure and support and assistance, and I still have the support. But now it's on me to create the structure and have boundaries. And I don't think I've ever had this much autonomy over my schedule, or I've never had so much freedom to be like, Yeah, this is how I feel most authentic and connected to clients. This feels the most honest in how I show up with clients. This is how I understand competent or quality care. And this is how I honor clients' humanity and my humanity in the shared space of that happening in therapy. And I think in some ways, it's also a grieving process like being a graduate was such a big part of my identity for, I mean, decades, right? Like, even pre grad school, being a student has been something that I've identified as part of my identity, identified as part of me for years and years. And I think people around me who are close to me, like family and friends, and my own community has also kind of seen that be a part of who I am and how I function and how I exist. And so not having that it's also just different, like, in some ways, it's really freeing. I have a lot more time and energy to spend on the things that I love doing. And like, getting time and space for hobbies, and being able to foster the things that feel really important to me, and let's not have to spend my time doing work, or reading or prepping for class. And also, in some ways, sometimes missing that, sometimes, the chaos that you know, sometimes feels more comfortable or familiar than the chaos or the quiet that you don't know. And so I think part of my grieving process, and that of the shift and the adjustment in that has been figuring out like, how do I sit in the quiet for a little while? And how do I ask of myself to have space to not know, and to have the ambiguity of the unknown, of the future. And I ask myself to be present now. And what does that mean? So I think it's all of that. And I think another piece of it, too, is why I find such joy and meaning in working with graduate students, students in general, like for individual clients I really enjoy working with, but I think in particular for group, working with graduate students, for me feels like a time and space that I didn't get to have as a graduate student oftentimes of feeling seen as a human being and honoring how hard being a graduate student is for a number of reasons. And holding space for like, you know, we make active choices to be a student, takes a lot of privilege to be a graduate student, takes a lot of determination and resiliency and tenacity as well. And it's also a painful process and system to be navigating. And so I think, for me, what helped me feel supported and cared for in that is having relationships like this, like with Dr. Schweitzer, or like with the professors that I found mentorship with, or other students that I really was able to connect with. I think having more forms where that could have been done outside of school would have been really helpful too, which is why I find it important as what we offer in terms of a group.

Sara  Yeah, for sure. Did you have that? Because you went to Chicago School of Psychology, right?

Kelsey  Yes.

Sara  I went to Adler.

Kelsey  Oh, yeah!

Sara  Sure things have shifted, but there was no - I laugh because there's so many memes out there, that's like, you're gonna let me go to grad school for psychology instead of pay for me to go to therapy? 

Kelsey  Relatable.

Sara  Because we know that we all found our way there through some mode of curiosity about our issues. Were those structures in place in terms of encouragement, or even just the availability of groups? Because you worked in the counseling centers. And in my experience, they're more accessible in universities, than they are in grad schools, which is wild.

Kelsey  I think it's a really fair question and something that I've kind of grappled with. And I don't think I really realized it until I went on internship. And I was like, oh, this would have been such a beneficial space to have had as a student. Right? And as a human being. I think in a lot of our graduate programs, like it's not accessible, I know in my relationships that I've worked at or kind of harvested with surrounding colleges and universities, like who have health centers there can be. So I think there is greater accessibility when there's numerous programs, being for solely graduate programs, it seems like, I know at least I didn't have access or didn't really know or hear of any options. Which also, I think, at times felt a bit confusing and maybe almost cusping on disempowering, because I was like, so we're in this field, where we're talking about how much we value mental health care, and how much we value having work life balance, and seeing people in their struggle and creating space for self care and creating space for the honesty of the pain and all these things that we can hold at once. And we don't have any spaces that are doing that for us as students? When we're actively offering care and collaborating in care with clients who have a lot of trauma and oftentimes working as a practicum student, you work with clients who don't have the same level of accessibility to resources and are often coming from communities or have identities that are underserved and experience systematic oppression. And so I think sometimes it felt a little bit like, okay, then how do I model this for clients? It's not being modeled for me? Like, how do I know what self care is supposed to look like? Or how do I deconstruct grind culture, when I'm just being validated for grinding? These things feel like they're the antithesis of one another. And so I think for me, it wasn't really an option, or anything that I saw, or was even really normalized, until I left and went into other settings, where they were kind of carved out and essentially saying this and that was automatically given to students. And maybe it was also due to - because like, at universities, it's just the sheer number of students that like the funding is different and how resources are allocated is different. 

Sara  Right. 

Kelsey  But yeah, I don't think I ever had it in this structured way. And I think, to answer the other part of your question of how did support also look, it was a lot more one on one relationships. And also, I think that can be really beneficial. I think, also at times, being with the same students that you're in programs with. And being able to collaborate and commiserate and have space to see one another, is incredibly beneficial and helpful. And also, sometimes it can become like a house of mirrors, right? Where it's like, you're spending all kinds of time together, you're processing the same things all the time, I think being able to have experience with other graduate students, which is part of what practicum was really helpful with having cohorts, other graduate students be able to be like, Okay, we're sharing this kind of similar experience, but also you have these different kind of perspectives, or you have different avenues of resources, or you have your own kind of network, what are you doing? What can I do differently? What can I learn from you? But still, you're working together, it's not just space to hole for support.

Sara  Yeah. Which I think speaks to your passion with working in groups, right, and bringing groups of students together that aren't necessarily in the same population or cohorts, but grad school in itself. And however people trickle their way into grad school and have their own experiences, in that, holding a space for all of that both diversity and sameness is super important. And something I don't think I had in grad school. I mean, I remember my group class was like, my favorite class, because it was going to group therapy. And our professor was the best. But also, that was a class, I got a grade for that for showing up. And it was with other people from other programs, not just my program. Yeah, it's a huge thing that you're doing. And I think something that can be super scary from the grad student perspective of like, well, I know I need that. But what happens when I join? 

Sara  Let's speak a little bit to the groups that you hold and the group that you're holding here. What is the space like? What do you want people to know about your grad student group?

Kelsey  That's a good question. I think the main thing that I want people to know is that you don't have to have experience in group and you don't have to know what to expect or how to be, just showing up is enough. Like in the same kind of mindset of therapy of, it's okay if we don't know where we're going, or how we get there. But showing up and knowing that you're not alone, is more than enough. I think in the idea of it being both kind of a processing group, but more of a support group, is also, it's not gonna be the traditional process group where the goal or the emphasis is just processing interpersonal relationships. It's really to be able to hold space here. We share this identity as grad students and also deserve and need space, to be human beings and not be evaluated on our performance. Not have to be mindful of how I'm being experienced and what this means for my peer relationships or how others experience me in my program. Being able to have space to say, what happens when I'm not doing okay, what if I'm not burned out, but I'm constantly burning? Did other people relate to that?

Sara  Oh, I like that.

Kelsey  Right, like, what happens if it's a concept process without kind of an end date? Or when the idea of well, I won't be burning out after graduation? It's like, Well, life doesn't stop. How are we taking care of you in the here and now? I think they're all kinds of things that I really want to offer in the space. And the same idea too, when I come into the space, I don't have expectations of how people should show up, or how they have to be or what they have to bring, or what they have to say. I think one of the most beautiful parts of group is being able to be spontaneous and present in the moment because how rare does that feel in life outside of therapy, right, how can someone be like, how are you doing right now in this moment? Right? Can we hold space for just that, not what we have to do after session ends, not what we have to do tonight or tomorrow or the next day? But like, how are you doing right now? And can we just center this moment? And feel connected here together? So that's what I hope people feel.

Sara  It's a lot like what you were saying before of your own transition and grieving process, right? Because like in grad school, there's no such thing as being present. Because if you're present, you're behind.

Kelsey  Exactly, exactly, like being present means that you're not being aware of - you're not anticipating enough.

Sara  You're not thinking about all of your syllabi and your projects and your papers and your practicums and reaching out and making sure you're building your network. And so yeah, you're kind of alongside your group members, too.

Kelsey  Yeah. Well, I think it's also part of the process of deconstructing the idea of like, the rightness the clinical rightness of doing graduate school a certain kind of way, or the way that we internalize white supremacy and capitalism, and patriarchy in terms of how we're supposed to show up, like all the elitism that happens in graduate programs too of the expectation to be robots, and somehow always be working optimally, which is not only problematic, but incredibly harmful, and just provokes so much shame. And just having needs and being human, which, I mean, never goes away. And so I think maybe that's also part of the group idea, too, is these things are being asked of you in a graduate program in a unique way. But these things, also, the skills that we're going to work on in terms of humanizing you and allowing space to deconstruct the shame of that, and feeling seen and feeling heard and doing with others witnessing it aren't just skills that are unique to grad school, those are things that we need in life.

Sara  Yeah. It's so interesting to think about it, like, in terms of us, we went to grad school to help people. Yet we were always trying to produce something. Like we're not engineers here.

Kelsey  If only there were a formula here, as a therapist, if only!

Sara  There's no end goal here other than feeling completely human, and say, in what you want, what you don't want, who you want to be with, you don't want to be with. And so it is just kind of like that conundrum of, we were grinding, but why?

Kelsey  I think that's also kind of speaking to that process to my experience in grief and adjustment, is doing all this work and then kind of again, figuring out - and how do I make meaning of it? Like, what does this mean, for me, as Kelsey, the person and the clinician, as opposed to what I was told the meaning of therapy should be, which is very not even preventative, but it's very focused on outcomes, and solely symptom reduction, which - those things are important and definitely need space and deserve acknowledgement. But, they don't take into account the relationship piece, which we're told over and over again, is the most important part of the therapeutic experience, or how to make meaning of the human experience, and how do I hold space for what clients make meaning of and find the most valuable and fulfilling? I think that's also an ever evolving process, because we're constantly facing systems that are telling us the way to be.

Sara  Yeah, I think that's a big thing that comes up whenever I am in conversation with you within our consultations and stuff too, is you're constantly recognizing the systems that we're pushing up against, or conforming to without even recognizing it. And I think that's a huge blind spot for a lot of grad students in terms of, yeah, the grind culture and maybe not even backing up, right. And I imagine, you know, we all go through our own transition out of grad school, but backing out of the structure, it's important to do research and trainings as a clinician. And there's also the importance of just being and experiencing our clients as they are without trying to push them into a modality or, you know, diagnosing. And I think that's something that you do really well and showing up and kind of recognizing the whole environment, in terms of, politically what's going on and systematically within, whether it's a grad school system, or it's a corporate system, and allowing yourself to pull the client out of that to see them as they are, and help them recognize the system that they're in that they don't need to be fighting to get to the top of.

Kelsey  Thank you, it makes my heart really warm to hear that that's the impression that I give. And that's also a huge shout out again to Dr. Schweitzer, I think being able to train with her definitely shifted the way that I understood systematic impressions and like influences on me. And also, I think the way that I understood empowerment, and navigating systems and like the kind of constant negotiation of, which fights do I want to save and conserve my energy for? And which fights, do I need to just float in because other things are like, I am more important, like my humanity, and my personhood and my well being is more important. I think too, I guess maybe it's my professional personal value and kind of naming those systems with clients and couples, individual and in group. Because - how often they go unnamed. It wasn't till a practicum that I had somebody named like, oh, this is the way in which capitalism, white supremacy correlate to perpetuate feelings of shame in you not doing enough. And I was like, Oh, wow. I just thought this was me. I just thought this was my stuff, which I mean, a part of it is, but like, oh, yeah, macro system things are actively impacting me too, in major ways, not just in small, insidious ways, too. But yeah, I think it's important, and it often goes so unnamed. Because I think people feel really powerless in it, like they don't have control over it. It's like, well, what's the point? And it's like, well, we name it and acknowledge it, so that we can see it more clearly. And then we can figure out which things are worth the energy and which things aren't.

Sara  Yeah. You're still seeing couples, right? 

Kelsey  Yes. 

Sara  Okay. I think we just need to name that. Put that out into the universe. I was just listening to that and I was like, Oh, yes, couples. What do you think is an important thing to kind of just drop and leave here in the space, whether it's about your group, your work as an individual therapist, couples therapist, your space in our team?

Kelsey  Such a good question. I feel like it feels so big. And also like, Oh, what am I wanting to leave? Well, I think yes, I see couples, I see individual clients, I want to be sure to leave my contact information too, in case anybody wants to reach out with questions or inquiries. My group, my graduate student support group, it's called Project coping corner, it meets on Thursdays from 12 to 1:15 (CT). The max number of participants or members there will ever be as 10. It's $20 per group. I tried to make sure that I was really conscientious about affordability for graduate students as well, because I know that money can be finite and financial well being is part of our overall well being. And we do ask for a commitment of at least six sessions, so we want to treat it as a consistent group. So it's not necessarily a drop in group but it will be able to offer more consistency in at least meeting six times so that we can integrate new members in and also have some consistency and sustainability in who's showing up and how we care for one another in that space. Should I give my email too?

Sara  Yeah, and we can also make sure we tack it on to wherever this lives in the atmosphere, in the cloud.

Kelsey  Ether.

Sara  But this was lovely. And we'll do more chats and we can be more specific in terms of like your couples work, your group work, your individual work or a new thing that you're exploring in terms of whether it's grief or systems of oppression. I think we can dive into a lot of different corners that we touched on.