Episode 4 Coffee Chats: Hannah Lee, LSW, Identity, Self-Care as a Caregiver

In this episode of Coffee Chats, Sara talks with Hannah Lee, LSW & RYT about identity + how that informs her therapeutic work, holding space for caregivers while caregiving, and the practices that she comes back to throughout this changing landscape.

Hannah leads Yoga + Support Space for Caregivers online every other Monday at 1 pm CT, which offers 55 minutes of group support, conversation, and reflection, followed by 20 minutes of gentle and restorative yoga. She also leads Gentle Rise every Tuesday morning at 7:30 am on the Room to Breathe weekly class schedule - register here.

Interview transcript {edited for clarity}

Sara Buxton: We are here.

Hannah Lee: Okay.

Sara: I'm speaking with Hannah Lee. I almost called you Dr. Hannah Lee.

Hannah: Thanks for the extra. (laughs)

Sara: You came to us through Room to Breathe teacher training. I spoke to you when you were like 8 months pregnant with Olive. Well, that was when I interviewed you. You were like, I don't know how many months pregnant, when I first met with you. You were curious about private practice work, and if it fit, and you fit, and all those things. Fast us forward. Here we are. You're actually full time -

Hannah: Yeah.

Sara: - At Room to Breathe. And you are kind of our “do it all” person. So, speaking to your specialties. I feel like you came in with the specialty of women's health and perinatal and postpartum. But you've really grown in your niche with Asian American folks, and your caregiver, parenting population. You are kind of the person to go to and talk about networking, and that has kind of formed your role here as helping us with referrals and kind of building out our partnerships in our community, and you always have really good feedback. So I kind of see you as a leader in our space. And yeah, sometimes I just want to pick your brain about my own life, motherhood, and such like that….as I come to you with this lovely cold. So yeah, why don't you introduce yourself?

Hannah: Yeah. Like you said I'm a social worker. I come with a long background in nonprofit and social justice work. And definitely came into, like you're thinking about, like the macro systemic issues that are everywhere. And yeah, I found my real joy in working directly with people and building relationships. Systemic change takes a long time. Individual change takes a long time, but maybe less long. Maybe?

Sara: It depends. 

Hannah: Yes, it depends. And so yeah, that led me on a winding path to getting my MSW, while working full time, with a baby, during a pandemic. And now we're out the other side of something, we're in this version of reality.

Sara: With 2 babies.

Hannah: Yeah. With 2 big babies.

Yeah, I was thinking back to how I found Room to Breathe. I came in through the yoga side. And I have such a warm memory of that time in my life where I was working in a nonprofit downtown, and also during that time later on was interning for the public defender's office. And so I would sneak away to a class at lunch time, or right afterwards at the studio. And it was like a nest, a cozy nest of like, okay. It's safe here, I feel held here. I remember going to a class and Serena would remember my name, even though I wasn’t going all that often, which now like - of course she did. And I remember walking past the clinical offices and being like, someday I want to work at a place like that. So I guess now I do. But it's in my house. So everything is weird. But I'm here and that feels really exciting - and weird, but I think, I was going to so many studios around Chicago and enjoying them. And then, when I was pregnant with my first, just really feeling like losing my sense of self physically, and not feeling oriented to what I was capable of, or what I wanted to do, and the spaces I felt welcome in changed in terms of wellness and fitness. And yeah, that never changed with Room to Breathe classes. And I guess that was the clue that I could keep coming back at any point in that physical transformation and afterwards. So that was what led me to the studio.

Sara: Yeah. And then if you could speak to during teacher training, do you - Can you speak to like a shift or more encouragement towards…I mean, you already were in your social work program. So it kind of makes sense. But when you finished teacher training - what was your focus? What was your capstone in teacher training?

Hannah: A class for folk that were expecting and postpartum. So that tracks.

Sara: Yeah. 

Hannah: And I was just about to give birth. I think I - oh, I did my capstone first out of our cohort because I was like I don't know when this baby is coming. I remember, I just had checked and being like I can't really breathe cuz this baby’s so big. And it was for the first cohort that was fully online because of the pandemic, and that also felt like a little bubble for me. And it's all this dysregulation and uncertainty of like, okay I have this space that I can keep coming back to that feels like I'm showing up for myself. And I think that integration - I mean, the psychologically sensitive element of the teacher training was always what I wanted, even if I didn’t have the words for it, and then that's what I wanted as a clinician as well is a space that, even if we're in a box here, or we're in person - like, it can feel so disembodying, it can be… therapy can be this like intellectualized experience or the, you know, top/upper body based experience and I wanted the whole thing and just looking for that.

Sara: Yeah. And then one of your first things that you offered was the parenting workshop. and I was in it.

Hannah: Yeah, how was that? 

Sara: That was great! I have like a 6 week old, I feel like. Very different. But yeah, I think, since coming on you've certainly, you've evolved a lot. But you've stayed close to working within that realm of caretakers and parents and perinatal and postpartum health. But you've also found a great niche. You've gotten a lot of Asian American clients, and I think you've made really good contacts. I don't know about Massachusetts, but I know in Chicago. So yeah, I mean whatever you want to speak to here in terms of your own identity, and how that has kind of, right, like you were driven to work with postpartum folks and pregnant folks because of your experience. So yeah, was it easy? Was it hard? What was it like kind of building that networking space in your practice?

Hannah: Yeah. I don't know what folks who aren't in a clinical space see, but it's not like you set out being like: these are what my specialties are. These are what I'm always gonna be good at or interested in. And like you said that evolved and it still is. But I think I was drawn to the parenting space, in particular in caregiving space, because there's so much conversation about how to show up for young people and how to show up for kids. The importance of doing so, like how that really shapes one trajectory, you know, as a clinician. I do so much work with folks around like healing childhood attachment wounds and trauma. And so parents have a tall order and high expectations. And so much advice out there is centered on “This is what you need to do for your child. To hell with what you need.” Or like, you know, speak in this voice, or say this thing like, who cares if you're got 2 hours of sleep in 5 min chunks for the last 4 years of your life, or whatever. And incorporating like -  it has to be both. We have to hold caregivers just as much in order to show up for young people. That's kind of where that stems from, and it's such a somatic experience to care give, whether it be in caretaking or being a birthing parent, very body based. So that felt like a natural fit.

I also think for me there's been a lot of exploration, as it relates to identity, because I didn't step out there saying “I am going to see…” - you know, I'm not branding myself as like seeing BIPOC or AAPI clients only, and I certainly don't, but that's the majority of who I see, and I think that for me, it's been a journey of figuring out how to own that, and see the importance of owning that, because for myself, I only recently have been able to see a clinician of color. And there's so much power in that shared language, I think, especially when there's a shared cultural reference. And especially in the context of what anti Asian sentiment and violence has looked like over the last few years. And that's what has brought a lot of folks to therapy. It's not a new experience, but experiencing it perhaps for the first time in their own lives, or having it be part of the national conversation, maybe in their own lives. So owning that space that I am able to hold. And then also the reality and the joy of being biracial is that my experience is never the same as anybody else’s. I've never met another British Chinese person that's immigrated to the US and grew up in Massachusetts then moved to Chicago. I mean, I'm sure they’re out there, but it's also never going to be like a perfect match up with anybody. And so I think with that I'm always going to be curious about what somebody has to share about their identity, and how they make sense of it, because while I might have shared references no one has all of the same points of reference, even within a family.

Sara: Right. Totally. Yeah, I think that you hold all this space in you, and it's something that I think you do within our community, too, like among therapists that has been, I don't know, refreshing if you will, because you're still a new as a therapist, yet you're so seniored in how you show up, and so similar to I think how you're saying for caretakers. We're always like, oh, we wanna do this thing, and Hannah's the first to say she'll do it. I'm like - let's not put it out to the group because Hannah is gonna say yes, and we wanna make sure Hannah has enough space. I know you know that about you, but I'm also bringing it up because I do want to know how you take care of you. I think that's an important thing to ask. Because you have 2 kiddos, you're not in a new space, but you're in a somewhat new space because you've lived in Chicago, and I know you lived in Massachusetts and family is there, and I just moved closer to family. But that doesn't mean help is always available. And you're a yoga teacher and you're starting groups. So let's talk about Hannah's self care, maybe, where it can improve, or it's just already steller?

Hannah: It's definitely not always stellar. I think it's powerful to be walking alongside folks in this journey, and to be able to say like, oh, yeah, “I feel that” because the history of therapy has been that, like the therapist is very distant, and has figured it out, and is often an old white man who has like a very separate experience, and perhaps their child care is always available and they never have a sick day and etc. (laughs) Just guessing.

And so, being able to name to folks… as you know as my supervisor often says, we're working with home. We're not just working from home, and I think that bringing that into the space cultivates a lot of compassion, it holds me accountable to be able to name sometimes when that stuff is going on. But it also holds me accountable to do my own work. Because that's the only way it's going to get done. So - you know I've moved. I had to find a new therapist. I was reminded how hard that can be to find somebody who takes your insurance and feels like a good fit, is gonna answer you, and etc., etc. And telehealth does us a favor for expanding access.

Sara: Sure.

Hannah: I try and read every night before bed. Just so I am like in a different head space away from my day. That feels big. I have to show up for my own yoga. I can't just show up to teach.

Sara: Which is hard when you teach.

Hannah: Yeah. But I feel really appreciative of our community as well, because it will be like, okay, well, I'll see you later this week, and then I'm like oh, you know, not like it's an obligation. But I'm like, yeah, I have to go, because I said I would see you this week. And again having the online option, like - there are studios near me. Getting out of the house is impossible when you have small kids. So having that, like, I’m gonna run upstairs, I’ll be back in an hour, helps. I think those are huge. You know, I've been really working on my own gratitude practice, too. And trying to write something down every day that I’m grateful for.

Sara: Good for you.

Hannah: Yeah, I get a little prompt from my phone at noon, and you know like today was one of those days where I was like, well, it wasn't in the first half of the day, so hopefully it comes later! But it does attune me. It was like well, that wasn't it, let’s see what else, let's see if we can turn this around.

Sara: That's great. I think we needed to talk about that for a second.

Hannah: It’s there.

Sara: It's there.

So let's talk about you being a yoga teacher now, and a therapist, and if that has shifted just how you see people. I know we're just in a little box, and you can see my shoulders and my chest, which maybe sometimes all you need to see when someone's having an emotional response. But the feeling of energy isn't there. But you are also trained virtually for a lot of your yoga teacher training. So yeah, what does it look like to be in session with you, and also do somatics work?

Hannah: Yeah. And you get the virtual yoga teacher, you see if you've gotten a lot better, I mean, I still struggle with our camera angle. You know, when we moved, I have a whole set up behind me. I know it's there. I think a big part of it, too, and I even sometimes joke is - how much of somebody I can see on this screen helps me a lot, like how they're showing up. Also how much they are allowing me to see, and how that can change over a session or over time.

Sara: So folks are with their phone, too.

Hannah: Yeah, you know. Sometimes people come on, and it's like this much (gestures close to face), and I'm like, “So we're having a hard time. We're going to need to zoom out, so I can see you.” And I think, even in the physical space, we don’t invite that in as often as we need to, being able to say things like “I can tell maybe you aren't breathing as deeply” or like you know, “Have you taken a breath?” or “I can tell you're moving around a lot, even if I'm not seeing your legs.” And naming that in a curious way. Not in a, you know, accusatory way, but like we're living in bodies. I'm surrounded by fidget toy-ers. We're feeling things physically at the same time, and naming that as we go is important, perhaps especially virtually. But I think that there was an absence of that when everything was in person as well.

Sara: Yeah for sure.

How has it been balancing your yoga class within your therapy? Does it feel refreshing to teach on Tuesday mornings? Is it hard to fit in sometimes?

Hannah: No, I'm very appreciative of my partner and his schedule and his Tuesday morning of - they're all yours, and they're always all yours as well as mine, but like I am not available. And having that dedicated time, and space. And so often, whether it's cultivating an intention to a class, or just I might have been up already at that point for 2 hours but I haven't moved my body or welcomed it yet. And so, even if I’m cueing, having that space is valuable because I assume for so many folks with small kids, it's like a fire alarm is going off when you wake up, there's no gentle. You know, stretch and then get out. It's like people are either coming in or calling to you, and you immediately have to do all these things, and so, having this chance to slow it down is so important. And I hope that's what people experience in the classes, and that that's also what space for in a therapy sense is as well, is a slowing down.

Sara: Yeah. And I imagine that's what your caregiver group is a lot like too. I mean, middle of the day is usually when everybody needs a really big break when caregiving. What has that group been like? And what are your hopes for that group?

Hannah: Yeah. I am always appreciative of folks committing to the group and showing up because it's hard to show up to a group regardless. Sometimes it feels easier, perhaps, to show up for individual, because it can feel very targeted, and sometimes with a group it can be like Well, what's it all for? And I can see folks entering the space with that kind of question in the air, and then through the process of saying like, oh, I felt that way, too, or I agree, or here's something I've tried, the question kind of gets answered. I mean, so much of therapeutic work and what we all struggle with is this question of: is this difficult because i'm broken, and is it difficult because i'm not enough? And having a space to be like, no, it's just really difficult. And that doesn't take it away unfortunately, but it is less isolating. That's the power of a group, and that's what I hope folks gain from it, especially seeing the range of caregiving roles that there are and holding space for all of them.

Sara: Yeah. And now that you've been practicing for a while, how much of your time do you still spend studying and working on how to do these things versus how much have you felt it's coming more naturally, instinctually for you?

Hannah: Hmm.

Sara: Maybe I just change the subject a lot. But I know you're a big reader and researcher, and I was just like, I know she's reading up before her groups and making sure she's ready and prepared. But I also am curious how much you found also has just come naturally, and through your own evolution of working with folks in different groups and individuals.

Hannah: Yeah, one of the reasons I was drawn to social work and therapeutic work is because there's so much to learn. You know. You've never fully figured out a person, your partner, yourself, definitely not your children. They are mysteries every day. And accessing whether - I mean I read a lot. These are not mine (gestures to bookshelf behind her) we’re a house of readers. We have an academic living here. So there, that's like always going to be in my blood. That's what, a lot of times, what I am reading, and I get excited about, and what i'm listening to just because it gives me other perspectives.

Carrying the therapeutic space, it's a big responsibility, and it always is a big responsibility and an honor that folks share such vulnerability. And you want to show up for that well, and I think it's easy to want to show up for that perfectly, whatever that means, even though you don't know. I've gotten more comfortable with the not knowing and with leaning on the power of the relationship. And the curiosity I have for people in our lives. I'm like - I want to know more about that. That doesn't always provide a blueprint for how to feel “fixed”. But it is a way to accompany people, and I think that that’s often the most that you can do, anyway.

Sara: Right. Because we're not fixing.

Hannah: Right. Definitely not. 

Sara: What would you say is the difference between fixing and healing?

Hannah: Fixing implies that it's not going to get broken again. That it's static, and it's a one time thing. And I often kind of joke with folks like oh, we thought that was over, and I feel the same way in my own journey of like, Oh, I thought I was done being a perfectionist, or I'm over anxiety like that. But it's like oh, it's showing up in a new way, or with a different set of skills, or with a new context. And healing feels like the ability to be resilient within that, to remember your strength. To have reference points for how to come back to yourself and where you are in that.

But I just made that up right now. So ask me later, and it could be something different. (laughs)

Sara: It was a random question that came up. I don't know where. 

So people can find you through individual, although you're pretty full. And your caregiver group still has some room. And in your caregiver group what could someone expect?

Hannah: Yeah, it's Mondays every other week. We come into the space, if new folks are joining, having an introduction and space to name why we're there. Folks will meet with me individually before joining the group. So having a chance to kind of orient to that. I like to check in with what worked? What's coming up? How many illnesses have been in your house, you know, since the last time we saw you? And then there's a little bit of accountability there. A lot of what I hope is to hold space for caregivers to feel cared for. But also to name like, how do you need to elbow in the room for yourself in your life, because so many caregivers are both instinctually and socialized to be in those roles of putting others needs first, and so challenging that, and recognizing burnout. And remembering the parts of yourself outside of caregiving. Those are some of the things I hope for. And so those are some of the conversations we have exploring different topics, reflecting on, doing an exercise together, and then I held space for 20 min of yoga at the end, and that feels like a nice way to bring things together. And to maybe put into practice physically what we've been talking about in the first part of our time.

Sara: Sounds nice. Sounds really nice. I always have a lovely time chatting with you and Sierra will make this somewhat prettier, and put it out on the interwebs.

Hannah: Thanks Sierra. Thanks 3 people watching. (laughs) No, I appreciate this. With all the therapeutic work that I've done, I have gone in blind so many times, and I don't know who this person is, but I'm about to tell them all of my problems. They're gonna have to be ready for it. So I hope this gives folks a way to get a piece of us and our space.

Sara: I know, me too.